Things are crazy now. I think we are all trying to stay healthy and maintain sanity as well. I thought I would start this thread so folks can check in and discuss how they're doing. I want all my BIC friends to be okay. I will kick this off with a first post. Take care of yourself lovelies.
@itscarin hi, please don't argue with Ispend2much6 on this topic. Everyone has the right to do and think whatever they want on this delicate topic. I'm sorry you had a miscarriage, truly. I'm in Italy and here abortion is legal, although my position on this topic is different from yours. I just hope that women will find a way to express their needs and health concerns in the most safe way possible, without messing up with others people beliefs. Peace 💕
@Skunk12puzzola It's okay; @itscarin was explaining her view more clearly and I didn't think she was arguing. It's good to hear what all people have to say because there is always a learning opportunity. My brain doesn't work the same as the next person's, so we can benefit from each other.
The problem many women (and anyone who has a functional uterus) now face in the US is that they don’t have the right to do whatever they want regarding the topic of abortion. Not anymore. Thanks to the Supreme Court’s ruling, certain state governments are now passing laws to make abortion illegal in most or all scenarios. In one state, average citizens can legally police any woman they learn has had an abortion, even if she traveled out of state to have the procedure.
People need to remember that their religious beliefs are just that: their beliefs. Not everyone else’s. There’s not just one religion in the world, let alone in the US, and many people follow no religion. This SCOTUS ruling pushes the US closer to becoming a theocracy, which we were never supposed to be. And that’s terrifying to some of us. I’d rather see the union dissolved —just let states and regions form their own new countries since we’re letting state governments decide things like this now —than see this nation become a theocracy.
I know you meant well with your comment and I’m not arguing with you here. I’m just making an observation and airing more of my thought on this topic that directly affects me and many of my relatives and friends.
@WinglessOne You're an intelligent, thoughtful person. If you have the time, would you please shed some light on a situation that I just don't understand?
I've attached two charts- one from the National Institute of Health that compares various countries economic status, regular contraceptive use, and abortion rates, and one from the Guttmacher Institute think-tank in NYC. I'm nerdy this way. The Guttmacher chart is a little bit old, 2005, so I don't know but that the info might have changed. Edit: I don't know why but in Opera's browser I can't screenshot it and this forum won't accept pdf's so I can't download it here.
The number one reason for abortions in the US is wanting to postpone childbearing (25.5%,) followed by (in order of prevalence) can't afford to have a baby, relationship problems or partner doesn't want a child, child will disrupt job or education, too young or parents want pregnancy terminated, wants no more children, risk to maternal health (2.8%,) risk to fetal health (3.3%,) and other (2.1%)
Most of the women mentioned here are in life situations where it is likely they will be intimate with a man. So my question is: Why are women not empowering themselves to prevent unwanted pregnancies by using birth control?
There is also the option of methods of intimacy that cannot result in pregnancy. People have to make priorities to achieve their life goals and well-being, so sometimes that means not doing whatever you want, whenever you want.
I do believe that history demonstrates that societies that respect and honor life (all life,) do better than those that don't. Honoring life includes the lives of children, the disadvantaged, infirm, mentally incapacitated, and the elderly.
Our previous governor, a pediatric neurologist no less, was in favor of post-birth abortion. Allowing the baby to be born, then "keeping it comfortable" while the doctor and parents decided if they wanted to "abort" it at that point. Fortunately that law did not pass, but only by two votes. That isn't abortion; that is murder. Once lives in a class of people are considered dispensable, others will be added to that list. I read about some of that now; limiting health costs to people that are considered not valuable because they're older and not contributing to the economy. And, I have seen that play out in the lives of my husband and my parents, all of whom live in metropolitan areas with first-class medical facilities.
@Ispend2much6 Hmm, I need to see the 2 charts in question and the studies they’re attached to. Can you cite the studies? Or drop part of the url to each study? (Leave out the “http” and ".[gov, com, etc.]" but post the rest of the url; it won’t appear as a link on BIC that way.) Before I can really assess a chart’s info, I need to know things like when it was created, how it was created, where’d the data come from (what audience was polled/surveyed, how large was that audience, which demographics were studied, etc.), what variables were and weren’t considered, what were all the conclusions reached by the study, etc.
Meanwhile, about your question: I’ll answer with 3 questions of my own, and my own answers/thoughts on those. I assume the respondents in those surveys/studies were cisgender women, so that’s how I’ll refer to them here, though I’d like to know their age ranges. (Were any of them minors instead of adults? If yes, then they’re girls, not women.)
1. Do we know for a fact that any of the women surveyed didn’t use birth control? (Was that question on the survey they took?)
As others have mentioned in this thread, birth control isn’t foolproof. Also, some women can’t take the pill, get an IUD or other implant, etc. for health reasons. (I know someone who accidentally pushed her IUD out of our uterus. That’s a level of pain I don’t even wanna think about. 😬 ) Some men trick women into sex without birth control. I don’t know how often that happens nowadays, but I do know it happens.
And then there are efforts to restrict access to contraception. Some people don’t understand that Planned Parenthood provides a range of healthcare beyond abortion, including contraception. SCOTUS Justice Thomas is, by his own admission, very interested in reviewing the right to contraception access (as well as same-sex marriage and same-sex relationships), regardless of Justice Alito’s opinion.
Heck, some religions have historically been anti-contraception, and some girls were/are raised with that belief.
Do I wish everyone who doesn't want a baby would use birth control? Sure. That goes for all genders. But I have no right to enforce that on consenting adults. If 2 consenting adults who can safely use birth control choose not to, that's their decision, not mine. All I can and should do is help ensure that people at all social and economic statuses have access to safe contraception and sex education, and push for uterus owners' right to choose what to do if they become pregnant for any reason.
2. Should we police the methods of intimacy that consenting adults may use with each other? That’s how some politicians have tried (and succeeded) to outlaw gay relationships. Should we go back to that and subject folks of all sexual preferences to it?
I accept that what consenting adults do with each other during sexual intimacy is their business, not mine or yours or anyone else’s. If they decide to have sex in a manner that could result in conception, that’s not for me to judge, praise, or condemn. I can’t force consenting adults to use condoms (male or female), for instance, even though I think that’s one fairly good way to prevent STDs. And I won’t lecture consenting adults about substituting penetrative intercourse with sex toys. Because that’s none of my business.
Related note: Sephora now sells a few sex toys, and it’s been interesting to see how some folks (on and off BIC) have squeamishly reacted. I’ve also gotten “ew icky” responses when talking about sex toys with other pro-life people who say “women should just have sex in ways that don’t cause pregnancy.” They want to dictate sexual methods to women but balk when tools to achieve said methods are made publicly available for purchase.
3. Is it fair to put all the responsibility of pregnancy prevention on women and girls, especially now that many of them won’t be able to decide whether or not to terminate (for whatever reason) their own planned or unplanned pregnancies?
I’m beyond tired of people telling women and girls to “keep your legs closed” but not also telling men and boys to stop trying to have sex with women and girls. (I’m not saying that’s what you specifically said; I’m speaking in general terms.) This blame the girl, protect the boy mentality is rooted in centuries-old efforts to control and dominate women. Men can get vasectomies but, for some reason, some state and federal lawmakers don’t want to regulate male bodies the same way they want to regulate female bodies. If cisgender men could get pregnant and give birth, I doubt abortion rights would be up for debate. 🤷♀️
Respecting and honoring all life: I’m trying not to get into the “when does life begin” debate. I’ve had that discussion countless times throughout my life, and I’ve learned that there’s no point trying to find middle ground. I have my stance on that topic and I’m sure you have yours, and I bet they’re different. They’ll always be different. You won’t sway me and I won’t sway you.
Part of my perspective comes from the ways children (who’ve been born) are treated in this country—not just recently but throughout history, including the children of not-white people. We as a nation still do a disservice to kids of various races, ethnicities, socioeconomic statuses, and religions (or lack thereof). I’d love to see more people honor and respect these kids who’ve already been born. As a Benedictine nun famously said in 2004:
"I do not believe that just because you are opposed to abortion, that that makes you pro-life. In fact, I think in many cases, your morality is deeply lacking if all you want is a child born but not a child fed, a child educated, a child housed. And why would I think that you don't? Because you don't want any tax money to go there. That's not pro-life. That's pro-birth. We need a much broader conversation on what the morality of pro-life is.” —Sister Joan Chittister
She doubled down on that in 2019, when she discussed pregnant mothers and babies at the southern border being separated and badly cared for, as well as the fallacy of anti-abortion laws without exemptions for ectopic pregnancies, r*pe, or incest. She also pointed out that “pro-life” laws and Christian (Catholic in her case) perspective seem to apply only to women’s reproductive cycles, not men’s ability to kill people for various reasons (war, prisoner execution, self-defense, etc.). She called that “morally confused. Certainly, it’s morally inconsistent.”
Post-birth “abortion”: yeah, that’s not abortion, that’s either murder or euthanasia. The latter is legal in some US states and includes removing coma patients from life support. I’m curious about the parameters (reasons/scenarios), if any, your former governor put around “post-birth abortion.”
The problem with euthanasia is how it could be used against various groups of people if not very strictly regulated. On the other hand, I’m not sure it’s fair or right to force a person (including a child outside the womb) in extreme pain to continue living in pain.
Some of my friends living with extreme chronic pain don’t want to die; they want to keep living. But another of those friends doesn’t. He frequently says he wishes he’d never been born. I’m constantly on the moral fence over him. I’ve lost several friends, some to suicide. I don’t want to lose another one. But this friend is in so much physical and mental pain every second of every day, and I don’t want him to suffer against his will.
A newborn in pain can’t tell their parents whether they want to live or die, let alone understand the concept of life and death. That decision would be agonizing for any parent, I think. I can’t morally condemn a parent for not wanting their born child to continue living in extreme pain. That doesn’t mean I agree with euthanizing the child. Like I said, it’s a moral conflict in my head.
If a newborn's life is terminated for other reasons, well, I'm far less conflicted about that scenario. Hopefully the mother wasn't forced to carry to term and deliver in those scenarios.
I almost PMed all of this to you instead of posting it in this thread. Part of me was (kinda still is) too anxious about sparking another wave of what happened this morning. (I had an anxiety attack after that and stayed offline most of today.) But nah, I’ll post it here in the open. Most discussion shouldn’t be censored or hidden, after all, as long as people aren’t jerks about it. Discussions, including disagreements, are generally healthy. Society can't thrive without them.
@WinglessOne @I didn’t say this earlier but thank you for sharing your perspective earlier, especially when you shared personal details about how you connect with this topic. It’s important that we honor and respect people when they share their vulnerability with us like you have. I’m sorry not everyone has been as respectful as they should be, because you deserve better.
@WinglessOne I just spent two hours responding, and I timed out and when I tried to post, authentication failed... I'll be back later.
I'm sorry my question caused you anxiety; I'm not interesting in fighting. I really wanted your opinion because you think through situations thoroughly.
I honestly like to know where people are coming from, whether we agree or not. I have learned a lot from people who are different than me (at church,) and the bonds that are forming are very strong because we are intentional and focused on what we agree on and respect the differences. I'm getting a first-hand education on how pro-life is different from pro-birth, but both are important, to us.
@Ispend2much6 No worries, it wasn’t your question that spiked my anxiety yesterday morning. It was… other discussion further down this thread. I’m fine answering your question.
Also. BIC’s season timeout keeps kicking me too, lately. When I know I’ll have a long reply (which is most times, let’s be honest 😂), I write it in Apple Notes or TextEdit (the Windows Notepad equivalent). Then I copy/paste to BIC. Lately I can’t even type a long response in BIC and copy all (to save to clipboard in case I get timed out) because that makes my post-in-progress disappear.
Sone differences I can respect, or at least tolerate. There are certain things I can’t (bigotry related to race, ethnicity, and sexual preference, for instance; I don’t care how people try to justify that crap, and I’m not nice to them about it) but the abortion topic isn’t one of those. Unless someone says they want a theocratic US based on just one religion (bigotry against other religions and the non-religious) that supposedly bans abortion in all instances. That I’m not cool with. At all.
My two cents @Ispend2much6 , and take it for what you will, I'm not a statistician or an OB/GYN. I wonder how accurate the stats are with the reasoning as to why women are abortions. It's such a taboo thing for so many people that I wonder if the real reasons are being stated. It's so much easier to tell a doc that you want one because you're just not ready to have kids yet, rather than tell them that your boyfriend beats you and would your kid too, you were forced to have relations (apparently I can't use the actual word here) or that your controlling ex would try to control you forever thorough a kid he would have rights to as well. I'm not saying it's right to lie about reasoning to a doctor, but I could see a lot of women who are in bad situations just wanting to end the pregnancy and not need to get into the rest of it at that particular point in their lives. It's such a stressful time for some, maybe they just can't deal with coming forward with other problems in their lives at the same time. Again, just my two cents.
@missjeanie @You hit the nail on the head. I was on a different online forum a few weeks ago and they were discussing the guttmacher studies (hope I got the name right). Some people were very adamant that the study showed people were getting abortions for “no reason”. That was one of the options in the survey — “no reason”. At face value it can be interpreted as “yes, people are getting abortions thoughtlessly” but a more likely scenario is “no reason” is another way to say “not your business”. Someone might also say “no reason” if they had 15 different reasons why but couldn’t pick just one. For example, if you got pregnant due to rap3 by a relative, are you checking the rap3 or the incest box because technically it’s both. But also, like you mentioned, maybe you don’t want to check that on the form.
@missjeanie I know that what you describes happens way too often. It's heartbreaking. The area where I taught school were full of lives under duress of all types.
There are so many people without strong support systems; how much easier it would be to go through tough things when you have people who are committed to your well-being in your life. More women would feel like they have, and actually have, more choices and not have to be stuck in a harmful situation.
@Ispend2much6 I’ll just chime in and say that birth control doesn’t always work. I had a friend who got pregnant because she missed her birth control pill taking by like an hour. She was taking the pill and I guess overslept one day and missed her time to take the pill. Even though she followed up and took it immediately thereafter, she got pregnant. She wasn’t in a position to take of a child financially or emotionally. She tried her best to use contraception but she messed up. I would hate to think the discourse around her reproductive rights being viewed as a “consequence” of her action (messing up her birth control). That’s just not fair to the kid or the mother.
I know somebody with three kids and he says they were all “accidents” but that he took “responsibility for his actions and faced the consequences”. What a horrible way to frame parenthood: a consequence of unprotected sex.
my friend messed up. I don’t know anyone who is perfect, so singling her, and people like her, out for their mistakes does not sit well with me. She went on to have a child with her same partner of several years *after* she finished college.
I was 21 when I learned that certain types of penicillin could mess with pill birth control. I was also 21 when I learned you could get pregnant if you missed your birth control by an hour or more.
with girls starting menses earlier and earlier, it’s hard for me to say a 9 year old, 10 year old, or even 16 year old should be responsible enough to prevent an unwanted pregnancy.
I think the biggest point I’d make is that nobody is using abortion as an alternative to birth control. Abortions are expensive, painful, scary, invasive. If you dislike Pap smears you’re going to hate an abortion.
@Ispend2much6 yep! After I had went to the Dr for the first time and found out I had miscarried, I was immediately scheduled a DNC I think I was around 8-10 weeks, found out my body wasn't producing enough progesterone on it's own to sustain a pregnancy, thank goodness for progesterone that can be prescribed
@Ispend2much6 Or hemorrhaging as we learned the hard way on a flight to Korea. Most traumatic trip ever. I hope they don’t expect women to actually have an infection before medical intervention.
@heartsmyface I'm glad your (I don't even know what to call it- experience?) had a good outcome!
Like I said, as far as I know, where I am, the dnc's are done routinely after a miscarriage happens, before infection can set in. It's a separate issue from abortion.
@Ispend2much6 first of all, I'm sorry about your miscarriage 😥😘 and you are so right about the remaining tissue pieces in the woman's body...doctors have to "clean" that area very well if you don't want to make an infection starts. I learned about this at nursing school.
@Skunk12puzzola Thank you. Even though it was a long time ago, sometimes, when my family is getting ready to go somewhere, I'll get the feeling that someone is missing and look around for a second before I realize why I felt that way.
But, like with a lot of things, it's good if I don't focus on what I don't have, or else I'll miss out on seeing the good that is here. Now, to apply that to shopping...
@Ispend2much6 Awww love that’s heartbreaking. I just want to hug you. Yeah focusing on what you have is helpful but the sadness creeps in and throws you off when you least expect it.
Community Profile
Sign In
Sign In
Close
