Skincare Stories
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Daily Skincare - what are you using?
Often people ask for recommendations on a skincare routine or for specific products/combinations.  This might be a place to share your everyday skincare, both AM and PM.  A skincare "what are you wearing" as it were.  Hope this is useful.   *Age - 40 Skin type - oily/combination Current skin condition - quite dehydrated (winter/indoor heating)*   01/17/16 - AM skincare in the order I used 1. Nude Jelly cleanser (love) 2. Pixi Glow tonic (5% glycolic toner - love) 3. Omorovicza Queen of Hungary Spritz (sample) 4. Radical Skincare Youth Infusion serum - hydrating and anti-ageing (new to me.  Testing) 5. Bobbi Brown Hydrating Eye Cream (like) 6. Elemis Pro-Collagen Marine cream (really like as an AM moisturizer)   I will try to post PM skincare tonight so the post can be comprehensive.   General comments - Okay skin.  Apparently the age between 38-42 is a transformational time in hormones (dehydrated skin/spots), so I am more aware of how my skin performs/reacts .  My skincare definitely has more "actives" now than before.
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BEAUTY SAVANT JulesLG / BEAUTY SAVANT BEAUTY SAVANT / replied
How do you like the midnight recovery eye cream?  see post
Best of the Best: What Are Your Favorite Natural Skincare Products?
Hey BeautyTalkers!    I have noticed a lot of chatter about natural skincare products in the beauty world. There is no perfect definition of 'natural skincare' but I am thinking of products that are labeled partially or 100% organic, sulfate-free, paraben-free, plant-based, or just made with simple ingredients.    There are a lot of reasons a product may be considered natural so without overcomplicating the definition I have a question for you all: What are your favorite natural skincare products?       Looking forward to reading your responses!    
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BEAUTY BOSS AmazingGrace333 / BEAUTY BOSS BEAUTY BOSS / replied
Thank you for this thread! My low-buy has been lifted and great timing--I had eczema break out all over my body including face so had to start all over again with skinca... see post
Skincare 101: Discussions, Questions and All
This is a place to discuss everything skincare.   - Have a question about a product (Or type of product) - Need recommendations - Learned a new tip or trick you want to share with fellow skincare junkies - New to skincare and lost about where to start - Have a skincare emergency ( Bad reaction, broken dropper, lost lid of a jar) Images From top left to clockwise (Essencz, Garnier, Men's Fitness, Harper Bazaar)   We have some great thread about skincare but I feel we don't have a general place to discuss skincare which is open for everything from lowend products to luxury skincare.    Other skincare threads you may like to explore   http://community.sephora.com/t5/Ask-The-Experts/Al l-about-Luxury-skincare-Come-in-and-chat-about-you ...   http://community.sephora.com/t5/Skincare-Stories/D aily-Skincare-what-are-you-using/m-p/2716765#M8681      
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HALL OF FAMER kso1225 / HALL OF FAMER HALL OF FAMER / replied
@ayeshayh I love Lala Retro!  It keeps my skin so well moisturized and I love that it's in an airless pump. I have B-Hydra too and I like the lightweight texture, but I ... see post
Algenist Real Results Challenge
Hello and welcome to our Vitamin C+ Real Results Challenge! We are so excited to connect here on BeautyTalk to hear about your experience with the Vitamin C+ Serum and share some of our favorite tips.   Our Vitamin C+ Serum is your secret weapon to combating advanced anti-aging and discoloration. This product is a triple threat, formulated with Alguronic acid, microalgae oil and potent vitamin C+. Safe for all skin types, this serum is formulated to minimize the appearance of deep wrinkles and support the most fragile skin areas while visibly reducing the look of age spots and discoloration. The impressive vitamin C boosts brightness and radiance for a uniform complexion. This is a space for you to discuss the product, hear from others and ask your questions. We are so excited to talk with you all about this powerful serum and answer all of your questions. Please share your challenge results below and feel free to ask us anything!  
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BEAUTY GURU Alicehoopz / BEAUTY GURU BEAUTY GURU / replied
all companies that don't test on animals rely on animal testing studies that were done by OTHER companies for safety assurance but yknow, you do you boo see post
Self Tanning/Spray Tan - Dos, Don'ts and Funny Stories
It's the time of year where everyone wants that beautiful sun kissed glow. Thankfully we have a wide range of good quality self tanners available to us now so we are not exposed to harmful rays.  What is your favorite self tanner and why? Share any helpful tips on application, what not to do and any funny stories you'd like to share.  
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BEAUTY CELEB bstew13 / BEAUTY CELEB BEAUTY CELEB / replied
I have an olive complexion and tan naturally. However, sometimes in the winter I can get pretty pale. We had a pretty cold winter this year in Canada so I went out to Se... see post
Best Moisturizers While Using Retin-A
I've been using Retin-A for a few months now because I had bumpy skin and white and black heads that never came to the surface. The results have been amazing and my skin has never looked better but one side effect is dry skin so I experience dry patches and my skin just flaking off. My current daytime moisturizer isn't cutting it so I'm looking for something that is extra hydrating and that has at least spf 15. I'm fine with even drug store brands. I just hate when I put on my moisturizer, do my makeup as then I get to work and I see my skin just flaking off.
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BEAUTY MAVEN Miniivan / BEAUTY MAVEN BEAUTY MAVEN / replied
I'm currently using cerave pm and I absolutely love it, it's super hydrating. So I tried the am version but to me it seemed too much like just sunscreen and I just didn'... see post
The Reactive/Sensitive/Eczema-prone Skine Thread
Do you have dry, flaky skin AND skin that would give BECCA Opal a run for its money? Does your skin clear up from a clarisonic whilst giving you that Rudolph-with-a-sunburn look? Would you rather go bridge jumping than patch testing?   If you answered yes to some of these, then welcome to the finicky skin support club! We meet on good skin days, which happens maybe once in a blue moon, so like never.    --   *SKIN, not skine. Ugh. 
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HALL OF FAMER Ispend2much6 / HALL OF FAMER HALL OF FAMER / replied
@jominguez  I'm not familiar with the Dr. Jart eye cream, but I've found that 100% Pure's eye cream (it has caffeine,) is very gentle for me.  I also do like Bobbi Brown... see post
Paula's Choice Discussion & Deals Thread
I thought I'd start a dedicated thread where people can get answers to any questions they have about Paula's Choice skincare products and share deals!   I've been using PC products for two years now (I've switched out almost everything from the other brands I was using, like Tatcha, Somme Institute and Algenist) and it's made such a difference to my skin.   My current regime is: Skin Recovery Cleanser Resist Toner Resist BHA 2% liquid Resist Skin Firming Line Minimizer Dark Spot Eraser 2% BHA Resist C15 Super Booster Calm Redness Relief Repairing Serum Skin Recovery Moisturiser 1% Retinol Booster Clear Ultra Light Daily Fluid SPF30/ Reist Daily Moisturizer with SPF25   If you're looking to get a deal on Paula's Choice, there's $10 off your first order for new customers at PC direct with a referral frequent sales, ranging from 15% to 25% off, at PC direct cashback - currently 12% at Topcashback and for new members 30% (up to $20) at CouponCabin $15 off $75 for new customers at B-Glowing with a referral, as well as a Paula's Choice gwp with $50+ orders at Dermstore, 15% off with subscriptions or 20% off for new customers Please feel free to add any other offers you know about or ask any questions about the brand! Let the discussion and deal sharing begin!
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BEAUTY BRAINIAC forrestt / BEAUTY BRAINIAC BEAUTY BRAINIAC / replied
There's a 15% off all products until May 1/17! My favourites are from the resist line, it's really helped my skin so far :) you can save $10 off your first time purchase... see post
Farmacy Green Clean for Eyes?
I have this product and LOVE it, it's perfect for cleansing my dry skin.    I see a lot of testimonials about it being great for removing eye makeup but am not sure the best way to go about doing that. I apply to my skin as directed, does using a washcloth to remove the product help swipe a little over the eyes without overdoing it and do the job?   Thanks for any info you can provide!
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HALL OF FAMER SydBristow / HALL OF FAMER HALL OF FAMER / replied
Awesome, thanks! :) I think this stuff is amazing and if it does a good job of removing eye makeup too it will replace a few items for me! Just worried about getting pro... see post
Dr. Gross Real Results Challenge
Turn your skin on! We can’t wait for you to try our NEW C + Collagen Brighten & Firm Vitamin C Serum. This weightless, fast-absorbing gel-serum is power-packed with our proprietary vitamin C (3-O C technology) and energy complex plus collagen amino acids.    Rev up tired looking skin for a tighter and brighter complexion! During the challenge, see an improvement in imperfections like dullness, dark spots, rough texture, and expression lines as skin is repaired and protected from aging and environmental aggressors.   Use this thread to share your results, learn tips, and ask any questions you may have. We will be checking here throughout the challenge to answer your questions.  Can’t wait to see your results!
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SPF and facial skin irritation
I may be wrong, but I've noticed a connection between using products with SPF and irritation on my face. When I use products with SPF, I get an irritation on my face, along with whiteheads, and a tingly sensation on my skin. (I try to use oil-free facial products for sensitive skin, btw) This also happens when I use one of my favorite cosmetic lines, Bare Escentuals. I love their products, but I will have to stop using the ones with SPF because I believe it may be the cause of my irritation. I am going to switch to foundation and concealer without SPF, and I've had to stop using facial moisturizers with SPF also. I just cover my skin up as much as possible when in the sun, or I use an umbrella to keep the sun off.   What do you think? Has anyone else experienced facial irritation from SPF?    
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SRJazz / FRESH FACE / replied
Sunscreen irritates my eyes and makes them water so much I have to wash it off (which defeats the purpose). Shiseido's daily moisturizer with sunscreen was the only one ... see post
Sunday Riley Real Results Challenge
We’re thrilled to share with you the #1 anti-ageing serum at Sephora: our Good Genes All-In-One Lactic Acid Treatment. This product is formulated with high-powered, purified-grade lactic acid that exfoliates away dull, pore-clogging dead skin cells to visibly reveal smooth, fresh, younger looking skin.   In addition to lactic acid, skin-brightening licorice helps visibly reduce the look of dark spots, age spots, and discoloration caused by sun exposure, for naturally brighter, more even-toned skin. Good Genes is also clinically tested and proven to significantly improve the appearance of lines and wrinkles in just three minutes!   We’ll be checking this thread frequently throughout the month to chat about the challenge itself and answer your questions about Good Genes. We can’t wait to hear about your results!
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BEAUTY PRO bharvey / BEAUTY PRO BEAUTY PRO / replied
Okay...I might be amazed.  It took me a bit to start this challenge and I'm currently on day ONE...I have pretty noticeable laugh lines (life well lived I guess) and aft... see post
Easy 5 minute routine
Looking for a foundation or other option to use for work.  Currently i use hourglass hylauronic skin tint and i love it!  but it is expensive and i am looking for a light and quick option just to even tone while providing a slight coverage for work.  I am a teacher, so I don't like the feeling of a lot on my face during the day.   Any suggestions welcome!  I have combination to dry skin- somewhat sensitive
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HALL OF FAMER Haleyhale / HALL OF FAMER HALL OF FAMER / replied
I love the new NARS soft matte concealer. It gives a great, natural finish, so pigmented and stays put all day. I suggest pinpoint concealing any trouble/and or red area... see post
YOUR SKINCARE STORY
this little questionnaire is floating around instagram, and i thought it might be fun to bring it over here. i'll post the questions written out in the spoiler for easy copying & pasting, and post my answers below too     Spoiler (Highlight to read) 1. How did you get into skincare ? 2. What is your favorite skincare step ? 3. What is your favorite skincare ingredient ? 4. Which products are currently on your wishlist ? 5. Which brand / product would you never spend your money on ? 6. What is your biggest skincare regret ? 7. What is your HG skincare trick ? 8. What are 3 of your all time favorite products ? 9. Who is your skincare inspiration ? 10. What is your 2017 skincare goal ? 1. How did you get into skincare ?2. What is your favorite skincare step ?3. What is your favorite skincare ingredient ?4. Which products are currently on your wishlist ?5. Which brand / product would you never spend your money on ?6. What is your biggest skincare regret ?7. What is your HG skincare trick ?8. What are 3 of your all time favorite products ?9. Who is your skincare inspiration ?10. What is your 2017 skincare goal ?  
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HALL OF FAMER Saschattack / HALL OF FAMER HALL OF FAMER / replied
@shirleylin88 Okay! I'll message you if I end up wanting it. Although I'm in Canada so I'm not sure how you would feel about trading cross border. For myself it would ha... see post
LA MER Thread
The highly anticipated LA MER brand is finally at Sephora. Share your thoughts about the brand and what products you feel are worth the price and what items you would pass on.  Have you found any possible dupes?  
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HALL OF FAMER virgo87 / HALL OF FAMER HALL OF FAMER / replied
@Madeline7  That would be great but I think an independent lab or group would need to do it but I am sure someone would try and influence them or sway the results. see post
Is rubbing alcohol bad for your skin?
I've been trying to figure out if Rubbing Alcohol is bad for your skin because I've used it to clean my face and all it does is dry it out- which isn't necessary a bad thing because I have acne-prone skin but it does nothing but clean my face although that's also not a bad thing. I was just wondering because I've used it forever but nothing's bad has ever happened. Just wondering if it can damage your skin or something.   Any advice??? XOXO,      Z
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BEAUTY PRO IZ95 / BEAUTY PRO BEAUTY PRO / replied
This won't be the most detailed answer but at the most basic level, alcohol in skincare usually dries out your skin. I haven't done too much research, but I definitely n... see post
NUDE Skincare Thread
I was thinking we should have an "official" NUDE Skincare thread, in case something comes out of this new NUDE story that is happening lately. ( And even if not. ) So we can follow it all here. There are some threads, but those are more just questions and inquiries about NUDE stuff. It would be easier to have all things NUDE at one place, so we can all share news, updates, those possible new products, and anything NUDE here.   This is an announcement on Beautycounter about NUDE Skincare:   "It is with great excitement that we announce Counter Brands, LLC, parent company of Beautycounter, has acquired the worldwide assets of NUDE Skin Care, Inc. and NUDE Brands, Ltd. founded by Ali Hewson, the wife of musician and social activist, Bono. As a result of this deal, and their genuine interest in our products and mission, Bono will join the company as an investor and Ms. Hewson will join the Board of Directors of Counter Brands, LLC. Similar to our partnership with Target, this validation from such respected public figures will lead to increased brand awareness and client base. We are thrilled to have them join our team. The synergy between our two companies – from mission to ingredient selection process – makes NUDE a logical and compelling addition to our growing brand portfolio. We believe that incredible things are possible for our business and our unwavering advocacy work in D.C. For the foreseeable future, the Beautycounter and NUDE lines will exist as they do today."   They also said:  "“We will continue to sell through their existing channels of distribution,” Renfrew said of Nude. “The idea is to grow the channels of distribution as well as the product line as a whole,” she said."   Also: "NUDE products are currently available in the US on Sephora.com, across Europe in Space.NK stores and online, in Australia in Mecca stores and Mecca.com."   Response from Sephora's CS ( 6/30/2016 ): "The Nude Skin care line has been highly anticipated with our clients, and we can certainly appreciate your interest! At this time, some of the NUDE products are limited edition and will be on our site as supplies last, while other products are on our site to stay! We suggest staying tuned to Sephora's promotional emails, as new product launches are frequently announced via email. Additionally, keep checking back on our website under the Quick Link "Just Arrived"."   If you have any news, please feel free to share them here. If you have questions, post them here, and hopefully someone will have answers. Or we can all "investigate" together and try to find out what's cooking.    
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HALL OF FAMER mella900 / HALL OF FAMER HALL OF FAMER / replied
That's a strange, and no I haven't noticed any weird smell. No smell. I would make sure the tube is sealed if you plan on using them. see post
La Mer Moisturizer Ingredients
Does anyone have the complete ingredient list for the La Mer Moisturizer?  Thank you.
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HALL OF FAMER lylysa / HALL OF FAMER HALL OF FAMER / replied
Hi, redtopper!   I posted a response to your inquiry on the thread posted in the Beauty Insider portion of Beauty Talk:   http://community.sephora.com/t5/Beauty-Insi... see post
Skincare Routine.
So this is my current Nighttime skincare routine, looking for feedback on the order im doing things in:   Coconut Oil to remove makeup A Foaming Cleanser (exfoliant/mask/ sometimes both once to twice a week) Toner hydrating mist Oil eye cream moisturizer I also want to add an essence in here as well as Sunday Riley's Good Genes Lactic Acid.   I am also super curious about what i should leave in/leave out in the mornings!   Please let me know thoughts on my current routine as well as where to add in these new products !!! Thank you!
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NikkoBT BEAUTY ADVISOR / BEAUTY ADVISOR BEAUTY ADVISOR / replied
Hi @emmag14,   I think you have a great routine down! It's pretty similar to my own:   Cleanse Mask/Exfoliate  Tone Essence Oil Eye Cream Moisturizer... see post
LXMI Crème du Nil Pore-Refining Moisture Veil Leaking Issue
I love the LXMI Crème du Nil Pore-Refining Moisture Veil but I travel a lot and every time this creme leaks out of the container.  Does anyone have a suggestion I can try to avoid the leaks?  I cannot imagine not using it but it is getting expensive to lose so much product all the time.  I wish they would redesign the packaging as it seems this may be an issue.  My original order leaked out and had to be replaced with the one I am using now.   BTW....this stuff is so good...particularly after a long flight or a late night.  I just love what it does for my skin.
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LXMIOfficial BRAND STAFF / BRAND STAFF BRAND STAFF / replied
Hi Astray! This is Leila Janah here, founder of LXMI. We are aware of the packaging issue and decided to make some small tweaks to the formula so it's a bit thicker and... see post
SKINCARE HGs !
i've seen this type of question asked more generally, but i wanted to ask it specific to skincare. not only is it interesting to see what has really worked for people, but it'll maybe highlight some products others are interested in trying !   so: what are specific  products that would cause you to hyperventilate were you to run out ?   mine currently are:   cleansers CLINIQUE take the day off cleansing balm (makeup removal) NUDE SKINCARE perfect cleanse omega cleansing jelly (skin cleanser) PIXI glow mud cleanser (economical) OMOROVIZCA thermal cleansing balm (luxury) toners (acids & hydrating) FIRST AID BEAUTY facial radiance pads (AHA) PIXI glow tonic (AHA) PIXI milky mist (moisture) MURAD essential-c toner (moisture/essence) DR DENNIS GROSS ultra gentle alpha beta peel (AHA)... this is like a toner/serum/mask hybrid that i don't really know where to put on this list ! oils and serums CLARINS lotus facial oil CLARINS blue lotus facial oil MURAD hydro dynamic quenching essence (serum / luxury). VICHY aqualia thermal serum moisturizers AVEDA botanical kinetics hydrating face lotion AVEDA botanical kinetics soft creme (for p.m.) masks (i like to have an arsenal for different purposes) REN glycol lactic radiance renewal mask (resurfacing) PETER THOMAS ROTH rose stem cell mask (hydrating / soothing / toning / brightening) PIXI glow mud mask TRIALING ! (things i'm trying and i think could make the list after a bit more use) MURAD hydro-dynamic quenching essence. don't let the 'essence' word fool you--this is a hydration serum. lovely ingredients, and so far  extraordinarily  effective ADDED ! ORIGINS ginzing eye cream. i don't typically like "brightening" eye creams that brighten by having light reflectors, but what i do like about this cream is how hydrating it is. my eye area is happier than it's been in a while.  REN vita mineral omega oil   to be fair...i think this is a LOT to be considered truly HG. but you guys know i have a lot of steps in my daily routine, and these are tried-and-true loves of mine !   edited 2/21/17
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HALL OF FAMER Mochapj / HALL OF FAMER HALL OF FAMER / replied
Hmm, went back to find my last response to see what (if anything) has changed.   These 4 are still HG's: - Farmacy Eye Dew (pry it from my cold, dead hands) - Farmac... see post
Caudalie Real Results Challenge
We are SO excited for you to test our breakthrough Resveratrol Lift Face Lifting Soft Cream. This luxurious, plumping cream is formulated in a creamy, weightless texture for nourishment that lasts, without leaving a greasy film!    This is an open forum for you to talk about the product, hear how others are doing with the challenge and ask questions. The clinical results from our lab are incredible, and we would love to hear your very own results as well. Please let us know any tips and tricks you have discovered during your 7-day trial. If you have any questions or comments please let the community know your skin type to understand and give the best advice possible. We’ll be checking this thread frequently during the challenge, so if you have a question for us, please feel free to ask!     Can’t wait to hear about your results! Let the challenge begin! 
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HALL OF FAMER Anewxa / HALL OF FAMER HALL OF FAMER / replied
@caudalie I just remembered to report back on this. I have been using the soft cream from a deluxe sample pot for about 3 weeks now. I really enjoyed this one and glad t... see post
Do you Exfoliate or Cleanse first?
Hello, beauties!   This question has been unanswered for many years. I've read so many articles saying that it's always been that you cleanse and THEN exfoliate, however, there have been many studies suggesting that you could get even better results by exfoliating before you cleanse! I've tried both and it's seemed to be the exact same.   What do all of you beauties do first? And how has it been working for you?   Sincerely, HonestlyFab! xoxo
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HALL OF FAMER lylysa / HALL OF FAMER HALL OF FAMER / replied
To echo what many have said below, I opt to cleanse first and then exfoliate. I do this because that way you're exfoliator (be it a peel or scrub) doesn't have to work e... see post
How Much Does Your Face Cost, Skincare Edition?
Last night I saw someone (gloss13?) ask on the Luxury Skincare thread,  would you pay $1k for a skincare product...  and through the conversation that ensued, a few people pointed out that their entire routines might add up to that amount.    So, it got me thinking... if I were to add up my entire daily skincare routine, where would I be at on that spectrum?  I have some guesses, but I have a feeling this will still be an eye opener for me (and probably for many others, too).  I'm only going to go by total product cost, not normalized for daily usage, because nobody's got time for that!   I'll write down everything I use in a day and edit my total in here.  Please feel free to come share your skincare snapshots with me
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HALL OF FAMER lylysa / HALL OF FAMER HALL OF FAMER / replied
This is fun!   Day:   -Ole Henriksen Truth Facial Water - $22 -Ole Henriksen Truth Serum - $48 -Ole Henriksen Ultimate Lift Eye Gel - $42 -CeraVe AM Lotion - $14.... see post
Ole Henriksen POWER Peel vs. DE T.L.C Sukari Babyfacial?
I use the Power Peel once a week right now and I like how it feels, but I live overseas for a few months at a time and so the DE T.L.C. Sukari Babyfacial looks easier to pack and just overall more convenient. Has anyone used both these products and think one is better than the other, or do they give similar results? I am not against buying another few 6 packs of the Power Peel! It is just more space in my luggage if the DE product is just as good (or better). Thanks! 
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BEAUTY GURU franceslovesyou / BEAUTY GURU BEAUTY GURU / replied
thanks for the detailed reply!!! Yea, I feel like I need to use the power peel once a week or I get an uncontrollable amount of sebaceous filaments. I will pick up th... see post
when should you use a glycolic cleanser? Night?
HALL OF FAMER greenchilli / HALL OF FAMER HALL OF FAMER / replied
@CGillenwater   You can use a Glycolic cleanser anytime.     A glycolic cleanser has less potency compared to an acid treatment - time on skin is important for acid.... see post
Drunk Elephant Baby Facial
Okay everyone, it's time for me to live vicariously through you!!   I'm dying to buy the new Drunk Elephant Baby Facial, but as a Canadian DE fan it is not available to me   Has anyone ordered it or tried it out yet? I want to hear your thoughts/opinions/experiences!!!
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BEAUTY MAVEN RunsWNeedles89 / BEAUTY MAVEN BEAUTY MAVEN / replied
Tell me about. You and I are in the same boat. I desperately hope they bring and keep all of their product line to the Canadian market. It's exceptionally difficult to a... see post
Burning Question...
Are you NOT supposed to put eye cream on your eye lids? This is the second time in a month that my eye lids are burning, itching, swollen, red and peeling. I have read different things online so I'm just curious to others experiences. Also, my mom is telling me it's because I use Korean skin care products and that I don't know what is in them and that Korean beauty products are not well regulated and can have anything in them. Is this true? I don't want to be putting rat poop on my face! Thanks!
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BEAUTY BOSS RMOR86 / BEAUTY BOSS BEAUTY BOSS / replied
I just started using this brand. I discovered the coconut smoothie lotion primer. Will check out the eye cream! see post
Cleanser-Moisturizer-Toner Recommendations
I am looking for a brand with a good cleanser, moisturizer, and toner. It does't have to come as a set, but I would like specific products (hopefully of the same brand so they can work together) to amp up my skincare routine. Any suggestions? I am interested in reasonably priced products, as I would not like to spend hundreds of dollars here. Thanks!!
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itsbreanna / RISING STAR / replied
Dry, mildly sensitive skin Large pores, redness SPF would be nice Make up remover is not a necessity  see post